MY NEW NORM Podcast
MY NEW NORM Podcast- with host, BARRY SCOTT YOUNG.
This podcast is about REAL PEOPLE and REAL STORIES.
We all have our own stories of change and challenges, and it is my hope these episodes will provide encouragement. I hope you will listen and will share this podcast with others.
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MY NEW NORM Podcast
MY NEW NORM Podcast- S4 E4 / BILL PARKER / ADULTING WITH ATTENTION- DEFICIT
MY NEW NORM Podcast- S4 E4-
Guest: BILL PARKER- J.D., M.S., Licensed Mental Health Counselor
Episode: ADULTING WITH ATTENTION- DEFICIT
Presented by:
BEAR- NOOGA PRODUCTIONS
Chattanooga, Tennessee
SHAREABLE Episode Quick Peek Video Link:
https://youtu.be/-hCG7tauDDQ?si=tc7T491aHjD8Re_2
In this episode, you’ll hear from my friend, Bill Parker, Mental Health Counselor, from Experience Matters Counseling / West Palm Beach, Florida. Bill helps us understand, and deal with the challenges of adult ADHD.
In adults, the main features of ADHD may include difficulty paying attention, impulsiveness and restlessness. Symptoms can range from mild to severe. Many adults with ADHD aren't aware they have it — they just know that everyday tasks can be a challenge.
www.experiencematterscounseling.com
Special thanks to Tammy Arlin, and Barry DeHart for sharing their story about adult ADHD in the episode intro.
What is Adult ADHD?
Adult attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a mental health disorder that includes a combination of persistent problems, such as difficulty paying attention, hyperactivity and impulsive behavior. Adult ADHD can lead to unstable relationships, poor work or school performance, low self-esteem, and other problems.
Though it's called adult ADHD, symptoms start in early childhood and continue into adulthood. In some cases, ADHD is not recognized or diagnosed until the person is an adult. Adult ADHD symptoms may not be as clear as ADHD symptoms in children. In adults, hyperactivity may decrease, but struggles with impulsiveness, restlessness and difficulty paying attention may continue.
Treatment for adult ADHD is similar to treatment for childhood ADHD. Adult ADHD treatment includes medications, psychological counseling (psychotherapy).
HELPFUL APPS:
Calm: Sleep & Meditation
Dwell: Audio Bible
Sleep Hygiene
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/bedroom-environment
NATIONAL AGENCIES:
Aid to Victims of Domestic Abuse (AVDA)
https://www.avdaonline.org
DIAL 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline
https://988lifeline.org/
LDonline (www.Idonline.org). This interactive site includes areas for students, teachers and parents, and features stories, poems and art by students with LDs. There's even an "ask the expert" column. Terrific resource.
National Institute for Learning Disabilities (www.nild.net). The NILD, a Christian organization, has a very effective program for helping students with learning disabilities. Learn aII about it here.
BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS:
1. You Mean I’m Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?!
2. Driven to Distraction (Revised)
3. TAKING CHARGE OF ADHD: THE COMPLETE, AUTHORITATIVE GUIDE FOR PARENTS. R. A. Barkley. Guilford Press, 1995.
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<silence> This is the My New Norm podcast, and I'm your host, Barry Scott Young. Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. At the tone, please record your message. Hi, this is Tammy from the Central Coast of California. I first learned that I had ADULT ADHD,, I think just about a year ago. I'm 65.
Speaker 2:Barry DeHart here here. Iwas , uh, diagnosed about three years ago. Initially, I thought to myself, oh great. There really is something wrong with me. But then I learned more about ADHD and I realized that, eh , it's my superpower. Funny that it took so long to be diagnosed 63 years old.
Speaker 1:I got online and I took a test and actually made me cry because I felt, I felt seen and I felt understood, and I felt like, oh, I'm not just lazy and incompetent.
Speaker 2:The kind of issues that I've dealt with pretty much most of my life , uh, have been inattention, inability to focus on demand. Like when people want me to focus on something now, sometimes not able to do that. I need some time to prepare.
Speaker 1:It was relieving to know that there was a reason that I functioned or dysfunction the way that I did in life.
Speaker 2:Uh , patience in stressful situations. Relational interactions can often be awkward and hard to sort out. Uh , organization is huge. Keeping myself organized is a constant struggle.
Speaker 1:The issues that I deal with are time management. My brain does not comprehend or orient or use time the way , uh, let's say average people's brains do.
Speaker 2:One of the best resources that has helped me a couple of books, and one of those books was called I'm Not Lazy, stupid or Crazy by Kate Kelly and Peggy Mundo. This is very helpful for my wife and myself. And we read it together, and both of us had aha moments galore. <laugh>.
Speaker 1:I've had to learn to do things like set timers for myself, a certain amount of minutes before I have to leave or give myself a certain amount of time to do certain tasks so that I can move on.
Speaker 2:Biggest shift has been to realize that I don't have to say everything that comes into my mind, but I can wait and see if those thoughts need to be said later or maybe not said at all. I'm easily distracted because the A D H D brain , um, focus is not on what's most important, but what is on most interesting. So you get sidetracked from what is most important. Knowing this about myself has helped me accept myself, like, okay, I do have a deficit in this area, but man, I have got a lot of gifts and talents,
Speaker 3:And I'm going to learn how to cooperate with the brain I've been given. Be thankful for the gifts that I have, and learn to use them in light of my own areas of, you know, weakness that everybody has. Today. We have Bill Parker with us today. You may remember he was with us Season three, episode 10. Bill, it's good to have you back. How are you doing today?
Speaker 4:Yeah , I'm doing great. It's a pleasure to be back. Thank you,
Speaker 3:Man. We , uh, we sure love having you here. And we wanna talk about this important subject because so many people deal with it, not just as kids, but adults. And most of them don't know they have it, and they've been frustrated all their life . So we're gonna clear the air today with Bill Parker. Uh, bill, you are a mental health counselor, founder of Experience Matters, counseling, living in West Palm Beach, Florida. What can you talk about when you talk about adults with A D H D ? Where do you wanna start?
Speaker 4:Well, I guess I, I might start with misconceptions or even controversies around A D H D . There's a long history of maybe you would call extremes of the pendulum swinging one way or the other, where we either make too much of it and diagnose everybody that struggles with attention with A D H D or a d d, and I'll explain that difference between those two. Or , or we're belittling those that are diagnosed with it as adults or we're, we're doing lots of things that aren't based on science and, and there's too much information out there that's either antip pharmaceutical or that's , um, you know, sometimes as Christians, we can get caught in the trap of minimizing things in the mental health field that are founded in science. And , and so you got a little bit of that going on too. Um, let's start just with an introduction to A D H D in the DSM five. This is the diagnostic , uh, clinical manual for all clinicians who work in the field of mental illness. There's one entry for A D H D and it's Attention deficit hyperactivity Disorder. Now, in the DSM four there was an A D D, and there was an A D H D and the DSM five. There's only A D H D , but it, it further goes on to explain that , um, there are two types. There's the inattentive type and the hyperactive type. And you could have either type of A D H D , I think certainly you can have both types. I think as adults, what I see more often than not is the inattentive type and diagnostic criteria. Diagnostic criteria is really fairly clear. If you look up that entry in the D S M, there's listed nine characteristics. And if you have six or more of these for a period of longer than six months, then you can be diagnosed with a D D or a D H D A A D H D INTEN type , or A D H D . In my practice, I tend to lean less towards diagnosing , um, because what we really treat are symptoms. A diagnosis is more important for somebody who is either on a special education plan or there's sometimes that's helpful for getting properly medicated if medication is advised. But in my practice, which is I'm a master's level clinician, I don't prescribe medications. The interventions that we use are more about, and , and certainly I work with professionals that prescribe, it's not that I'm against medication when it's clinically necessary, but, but all of these symptoms are on a scale, right? You could have a few symptoms or you could have a lot of symptoms. You could have five of the six symptoms or, and you could have them at low levels, or you could have nine of the nine symptoms at very high levels. There's a such a large scale of how this presents itself. And so when people say, I have a d d, you may not necessarily, it may not necessarily be clinically diagnosable as being a D H D , but you have symptoms, right? And in my practice, I treat right symptoms . I don't care whether you have six or seven of the criteria necessarily UN unless I'm, I've gotta bill your insurance based on my diagnosis. 'cause the treatment's the same.
Speaker 3:So you help people cope or set up a strategy on what's going to help them survive , uh, in a daily situation with , uh, symptoms.
Speaker 4:Uh , I think that's absolutely true. The, and some of the issues that I have with the need to diagnose somebody is that a lot of times somebody wants a diagnosis because then all of a sudden that justifies taking a stimulant or a medication. I think we all, to some degree, would rather have a pill to take to treat whatever it is that's bothering us so much. Yeah .
Speaker 3:Whether
Speaker 4:It's depression or anxiety or P T S D and there's medications to treat all of these things. But the medications we're finding as science gets better and better at following , um, following the results are great dependence on medication for solving some of these problems is misplaced. Because, for example, some of the recent studies show, you know, that the SSRIs for treating depression are not terribly effective and, and they're not much more effective. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> in some cases less effective than exercise, eating Right. Sleeping well, lowering stress in your life. And so it's almost as if what , what I kind of analogize it to , it's like, it's like for some reason our culture has become obese. We're struggling with heart disease and we're struggling with diabetes and we're struggling with all the consequences of the obesity. And yet all we really are doing is treating the consequences of the obesity and we're not treating the obesity
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:And there's a lot that we can do about our mental health that treats the underlying condition, which resolves so many of the issues. Diet, exercise, sleep, making, healthier decisions, having , um, a spiritual framework that gives you purpose. All of that together can have more significant impact on at least anxiety, depression, and A D H D . And, and I can talk about the similarity between A D H D is a, if you go through the criteria, often fails to give close attention to details and makes care careless mistakes. Jack , I do that
Speaker 3:Often
Speaker 4:Has difficulty sustaining attention and tasks or play activity check I do that often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly. I've had my hearing checked because people didn't think I could hear them.
Speaker 3:Oh, my
Speaker 4:Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace. Um, 'cause they're distracted by something else that takes precedence. I do that . Right .
Speaker 3:Right .
Speaker 4:Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities. That's a problem for me . Often avoids dislikes and or is reluctant to engage in tasks that requires sustained mental effort. For sure. Often loses things necessary to tasks or activities. Absolutely. Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli. Yep . Just like a puppy sometimes is often forgetful of daily activities. Like I , I , I know that to some degree I struggle with all of these and they , it has been much, much worse in my past. I would say that most all of my symptoms are in almost full remission because this was, you know, an area of my life that almost brought me to what could be termed a complete nervous breakdown. Right . Like, I wasn't functioning very well with panic attacks and anxiety, but once I got my anxiety under control, the symptoms of my a d d and a TENO type went into remission.
Speaker 3:Hmm .
Speaker 4:So there's a really strong link. In fact, there's a really strong link between stress, the lack of resilience, inability to cope just because, for example, that period of my time, I was eating awful. I was not sleeping. I was drinking a lot. So I had no resilience. I had body inflammation, I had neuropathy in my hands and feet. I had arthritis. I, so anytime that your life is having such problem, health problems where you have inflammation in your body, you're also gonna have inflammation in your brain. When you have inflammation in your brain, the synapses are not going to work near as well. Same as it as it is in the whole entire of your body. If your gut is unhealthy, which is where 90% of our neurotransmitters are , serotonin, melatonin, dopamine, RL generated there. If , if that's not healthy, we're gonna have problems. So , uh, when I treat anybody, I look at the problem very holistically because some of these, for example, these symptoms are the same symptoms you might find in somebody with P T S D . Hmm . Somebody with childhood developmental trauma. You , you may find these same symptoms. There's such an intersection of symptoms. Everyone that has a substance use problem has almost all of these symptoms.
Speaker 3:Hmm .
Speaker 4:Everyone with a mental illness, whether it's depression, anxiety, or even bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, they have all of these symptoms. And so that's, that's what makes it very difficult to isolate a D D or A D H D outside of everything else related to a person's mental health because it all influences itself.
Speaker 3:So really, if you can get a hold of your stress factors and get healthy, you're probably really helping yourself to all of these symptoms. The symptoms are probably gonna be going away.
Speaker 4:We can certainly put those symptoms in remission by taking Yeah. Uh , by making a few healthy decisions. But some of it depends on what the driver is. For example, if bipolar disorder is the driver, boy , you've gotta get into treatment and get properly medicated. Otherwise, these symptoms aren't going anywhere.
Speaker 3:I see. If you
Speaker 4:Have underlying trauma, childhood trauma or P T S D , you gotta treat that trauma. Otherwise, these symptoms aren't gonna go anywhere. Um, you can take, you know, a lots of very strong drugs and stimulants and anti-anxiety medication and benzodiazepines, and you can smoke marijuana and you can do a lot of things that will create bigger problems further down the road if you don't address the underlying issues that's driving . And sometimes the underlying issue is nothing but A D H D . Sometimes it's nothing but , uh, reduced activity in the prefrontal cortex, like low executive functions. There's exercises that you can do. There's things that you can do to increase activity in the prefrontal cortex, but it's not as easy as taking a pill. And so it's much, it's harder work. It's much harder work. You know, I think,
Speaker 3:Wow .
Speaker 4:When somebody begins to take care of themself , when they eliminate the stress out of their life and they start exercising, whether it's yoga or whatever it is, when you start eating better, you're gonna develop a resilience and an increased levels of activity in the prefrontal cortex. When you're more engaged with others and you're not isolating , um, all of those things become really an important necessary part of treatment.
Speaker 3:What would you say to one that's listening and they're frustrated with their time management, or they're frustrated because they wanna be successful, but they just can't get anything done?
Speaker 4:One of the most important things to understand is acceptance. Is understanding what it was. And, and I remember when I first read a book about A D H D , I had all of these symptoms. And, and not only that, I had a lifetime of, of unmet expectations because of it. And I remember the first time I read, I , I was just crying as I turned every page, there's a name for what I've got. There's a name mm-hmm . <affirmative> for why I am the way I am. And, and it's not failure, it's not shortcomings, it's not lack of discipline, it's not lack of focus. It's not all of these things that drive so much shame when somebody has, you know, if there's anything that's marked by somebody that has adult, a, d d, if they grew up with it symptoms, they're still dealing and struggling with the shame of not having their homework done, of losing their homework, of not bringing things to school of Right .
Speaker 3:Consistently
Speaker 4:Forgetting and not finishing. And there's , um, a book that I recommend to every client that presents with the symptoms of a d d that might go back to childhood. And it's called Driven to Distraction , uh, by , uh, Edward Edward Holloway. Super effective. First part of the book is nothing but testimonials, just to talks that talks about what other people's experience, experiences are. And as soon as you realize that you are not alone, all of the angst, which is exacerbating your symptoms, then becomes less once you realize you have these issues. Just much like a , a diabetic realizing that they can't have sugar anymore. You have to begin to make decisions and changing change the way you live. Because now you have what's the equivalent of Right . Diabetes, somebody with a d h D , they don't take a job as a project project manager and stop doing that because you need the challenge because you need the novel . You need the, you need to be engaged. Right. Because you also have that novelty seeking behavior on top of the, on top of the inattentive stuff. So , um, so stop doing the things that are making things worse. Stop putting yourself in situations that are high stress. Right. Don't take that sales job, don't take that . Those are the things we're driven for dopamine because we probably don't get enough in normal life. So we're always looking for novelty. We're always looking for new things. We're always looking to be challenged, but then we constantly putting ourselves in stressful situations which are destined to fail.
Speaker 3:Well, some of the issues that I have heard is that, like we said, it causes them to be frustrated. But there is a, a strong certainty that they don't want to stay the same. Where, where do you talk to one about you need to start doing some things, but it's gonna help you along the way to get better or to see change? Boy,
Speaker 4:That is a really difficult thing to address. 'cause sometimes people come to me and they aren't gonna change anything. They know it when they came in the door. They're not gonna change anything. They just want a pill. And
Speaker 3:Ah , there
Speaker 4:Are some people though that come in and they are motivated to do whatever it takes. 'cause they cannot continue to live like this.
Speaker 3:Right. They were ready.
Speaker 4:It becomes very diff
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right. It becomes very difficult when the source of your stress is , uh, a relationship that you're in that you can't get out of, at least right now. That's a difficult one. But then you begin to help people navigate what it is to be in an abusive relationship and how to manage that stress. And that's , uh, an art that somebody can learn and skills. So you address
Speaker 3:Yeah .
Speaker 4:You , you know, you assess where their motivation for change is and, and then just start working with them. With there . They may have only motivation to change some things, right. Maybe they'll change their stress levels, but they're not gonna stop smoking and cannabis yet. Right. So you work with what you got. Motivation is like a snowball rolling downhill. As it begins to move, it grows in size. And as soon as somebody starts moving towards a better frame of mind and reduced symptoms, they get more and more motivated when they see that the changes that they're making are having an impact.
Speaker 3:I've always heard that motivation helps us start, but it can't foster change long term 'cause it burns out. So you have to have motivation to start routines and habits and that's what's gonna take you to the end.
Speaker 4:That's, that's a excellent isn't
Speaker 3:Um , I was saying that I've, I've also heard that the adults that suffer with this find it very frustrating when they deal with their own kids who have it. It's almost like they forgot they dealt with the , the same thing. And there , there's that thing that's happened again, right in front of their eyes. Their own kids are demonstrating the challenges that they suffered through. And there's no real tolerance or patience, you know, as parents, well,
Speaker 4:For somebody with a d d patients is usually is , is is goes against, you know, the symptoms. But at the same time, what I see in adults that have suffered with this, and I mentioned this a little bit, is, is this shame-based idea that I am defective. That I'm not gonna ever measure up , that I'm just gonna keep making the same mistakes. To avoid that when we have children that struggle with this area that are always forgetting things that are always , uh, having tr like the best thing that you can do for them is help them manage their anxiety and stress levels about all of that. Because just like I mentioned before, our anxiety and our levels of stress exacerbate symptoms. And we have the ability at that young age when they start seeing symptoms to understand that they have these symptoms, but we're gonna work on strengthening their skills. We're gonna make lists, right. We're gonna get more responsible. But the idea that there's something wrong with you or you know, that , that I don't know that there's any replacement for parental patients because it's a lot more work. Having some , it's just like, it's a lot more work . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> having a kid that has diabetes or that struggles with mobility, it's going to make parenting more time intensive. There's no other way around that.
Speaker 3:Right. Let us know of some resources. You know, most people that I know have first gone online and saw some , uh, online testing. Uh , what are some other things you can do to clarify what you're dealing with? And then also getting some help towards it.
Speaker 4:I wouldn't discourage anyone from taking an online test, but without, but without the understanding that the test is nothing more than an estimate of what the issue may be. As long as that understanding is is held, that that can be really important. 'cause self-report is not the most accurate reporting. There is a test out there called the Tova test. It's the test of variables of attention. And this is administered by a lot of psychiatrists and people that do prescribe because it's an extremely object objective test of attention levels and re and retention level and ability to stay present in the moment. And very, very effective tool. But like , if you're having trouble keeping track of time like that one thing alone is evidence that you're gonna meet criteria for 5, 6, 7 of the nine and that's the big one. But if you struggle accomplishment for you , even if you're a procrastinator, these are some , these are gonna show you you that you're on the scale of having attention and deficit issues somewhere on the scale. Maybe you're not the worst of the worst, in other words, can't function. Like I know people who aren't able to complete a sentence when they speak ever. And yet you may be on the other end of the spectrum where you just have your struggles and you gotta develop some resilience, change some habits and put those symptoms in remission. Certainly when we're in those stages of life, Barry, when, when we are under pressure, right? Either because we've taken that job that doesn't fit our gifting, like we're project managing and we're juggling, that's always going to be difficult for you. That's always gonna produce fairly high levels of anxiety for you because of this history of having , uh, of every time you have a number of balls in your hands, you end up dropping 'em and it's gonna trigger, it's gonna trigger this memory network you have of failing and you're setting yourself up for disappointment in your own performance. And so, just like somebody that has diabetes or somebody that has certain limitations, you've gotta begin to plan your professional life in a way that that understands and recognizes those limitations and then builds on your strengths.
Speaker 3:So awareness of who you are and succeed that way , uh, is what I'm hearing. It's
Speaker 4:Absolutely true. And it's not just with a d d, it's also with, you know, realizing what our giftings are. You know, and I've , we said this in the last time we talked . Yeah . If you're a helper, you better be helping 'cause you'll be miserable until you do.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it's the same thing with this, you know, look at, look at the vocations that don't require you to manage lots of small details. Sometimes people with a d D and A D H D work really well working with their hands. 'cause when they're working with their hands, they have the focus and usually even the passion to get the job done and do it extremely well. These are the people that become craftsmen, that become mechanics that do really, really good work.
Speaker 3:I think it was Tammy who shared her experience that her brain works and it gets interrupted by things that kind of shine or bounce a little higher and it doesn't help her with what she was doing. So she's learning to kind of not believe what her brain is saying so she can stay on task.
Speaker 4:Hmm . I I like that there is some managing these symptoms is work. It's work. It's just work. We cannot be, we don't get the opportunity to live our life carefree.
Speaker 3:Well, Billy, based on what we've talked about today, we've got listeners that have listened to this and they're probably thinking, wow, I really wanna move ahead with getting some answers for me. Um, we talked about knowing who you are and what you have. We've talked about coping, working the work to make corrections. And we talked about that medication is not the answer that we always think it is. What are some other things that would help them on their journey of understanding themselves? Right now?
Speaker 4:I think it's probably important to understand the comorbidities with a D H D . You know, the difference, the , the main difference between somebody with anxiety and somebody with A D H D is that anxiety. You're , you're going to be stymied with worry about something. And that's what differentiates it a little bit from from A D H D , which is more , uh, it's actually in the category in the d SSM as a neurocognitive uh, uh, disability. It's something in the brain that isn't working right. Which is likely to not likely to be the same case with anxiety. Anxiety is oftentimes , um, inherent . Sometimes it can be problems with neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter production, but other times it's you're in fight or flight all the time because of something that's happened to you. And, and so the treatment is different. Treatment is different.
Speaker 3:I see. So the symptoms can look alike, but the prognosis is entirely different.
Speaker 4:Absolutely true. If you're in your young twenties and you're having these symptoms are increasingly getting worse , uh, you might have to see a professional to talk about whether or not you have a very serious mental illness like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. 'cause you'll see a lot of these symptoms. This is what you'll see and feel. Yeah. This is what you'll feel like is these symptoms. Yeah . For the more serious mental illnesses.
Speaker 3:Well, this has been very helpful to talk about today. I know it's going to encourage our listeners, either for themselves or a loved one or one they're married to, or I should say, I guess that could be a loved one too, <laugh> . Yeah . But some of the things that you've given out today, they should point us to not self-diagnose and be confident in that. But to seek out professional assistance like you or others would be the, would be a better choice.
Speaker 4:It's so hard to ask for help. It , it was impossible for me until I really bottomed out. Mm-hmm . It's so important to reach out for help to , because somebody that's coming there to help you, if it's somebody that you trust, at least they're gonna tell you, be able to tell you pretty quickly whether or not you have a very serious problem or you have small problem that needs to be addressed with some behavioral changes in modifications or whether sometimes the medication is appropriate. There's no way you can know that on your own. Especially 'cause because of this illness, you've been in denial for most of your life that you have a problem. You know, because you, you've been trying to normalize it.
Speaker 3:Well, as I said, we're gonna have some show notes available and we will put in there , uh, some resources but also some references for you to take the next step. And it is a journey. You're not going to get this done in 10 minutes and, and feel fine. You're, you're on a road of getting healthy. Bill Parker and others are out there to assist and to help. But we, we have got to connect with them and go to them , um, to help us along the way. We, we just can't say that, Hey, I , I can do this. I mean, that's been our problem many a time with this .
Speaker 4:Look, there are a lot of people like me out there that have both personal experience and professional experience with this. Um, I'm happy to talk to anybody anytime . Uh, you can reach me through my website, which is www.experiencematterscounseling.com. Um, there's, there's a lot of people out there that can help. We just have to ask for it. Even if it's just assurance that maybe you don't have a serious mental illness, maybe you just need to make some behavioral changes and modifications to get better. Um, but even that will lower your stress levels enough to help symptoms move closer to going into remission.
Speaker 3:Well, you've been very helpful today. I appreciate you. We'll get you back on here again. But I just wanna say I appreciate you what, who you are, what you do, and I do feel that experience matters and I think you really have something there. Things you have gone through gives you tremendous ability to, to help others, especially if they're stuck. I look forward to talking to you more, my friend.
Speaker 4:I love you Barry.
Speaker 3:I love you too. We will talk again.
Speaker 4:Good. I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 5:Now you can help support this podcast with as little as the price of a cup of coffee. Go to www dot k i dash f i com slash my new norm . Thank you in advance for your support and interest in this podcast. Until the next episode, this is the My New Norm podcast. It's all about real people and real stories with your host Barry Scott Young. Thank you so much.
